00:01: Charlie Rose: Peru's president, ALBERTO FUJIMORI, joins me now for his fifth visit to this program. This is his first trip to the United States since the dramatic rescue of hostages from the Japanese embassy in Lima last month. The video was seen all over the world: government forces blowing holes in the building and storming the embassy in a carefully planned, precisely executed rescue mission. Seventy-two hostages had been held four months by leftist terrorists and negotiations had stalled before Peru acted swiftly and by surprise. The mission, which was very successful from a military point of view, has been criticized in some quarters for other reasons. I am pleased to have the president here for his fifth visit to talk about this rescue and also other questions about Peru and its future. Welcome back.
01:22: Alberto Fujimori: Thank you.
01:27: Charlie Rose: It's nice to have you back. Let me just talk about the rescue because it was so dramatic and many people watched those protracted negotiations, wondering what was going on. Tell me your frame of mind from the moment that you heard that hostages were being held in the Japanese embassy. What did you say to yourself?
01:53: Alberto Fujimori: Well, this is new challenge, very delicate, big problem, but I took it, in fact, as a challenge, so I start to work in the solution. One was, of course, the peaceful way out and the other one was, in case of contingency, the military solution.
02:21: Charlie Rose: So you immediately began to say, ''We may have to have a military solution, so let's start planning.''
02:29: Alberto Fujimori: Both plans. Both plans. But at the beginning, what we have done is to guarantee the life of all hostages.
02:39: Charlie Rose: To do what?
02:41: Alberto Fujimori: Guarantee--
02:43: Charlie Rose: Warranty?
02:45: Alberto Fujimori: --the life-- the life of all hostages.
02:49: Charlie Rose: How did you do that?
02:50: Alberto Fujimori: Oh, just by managing the situation, not taking (unintelligible) that may be dangerous for the hostages.
02:56: Charlie Rose: How many foreign governments did you consult, your security forces and your military forces, about how to execute a raid like this?
03:01: Alberto Fujimori: No one. No one.
03:04: Charlie Rose: No conversations with the Israelis about Entebbe?
03:07: Alberto Fujimori: Not about Entebbe, not with the U.S. intelligence service, not the U.S. government about this military action, neither with Japanese, neither the British. This is, let me say, modestly this is Peruvian technology.
03:27: Charlie Rose: This was Peruvian technology?
03:31: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah.
03:35: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
03:39: Alberto Fujimori: Right.
03:43: Charlie Rose: The decision-- did you think it could be done without loss of life?
03:50: Alberto Fujimori: The decision has been done without loss of life. I was certain that all 72 hostages would be free. This was-- I was completely convinced of that.
04:08: Charlie Rose: Why were you convinced?
04:12: Alberto Fujimori: Because--
04:15: Charlie Rose: There is always risk.
04:18: Alberto Fujimori: Yes, there is risk, but we have (unintelligible) in a very fine strategy. There were three elements. The commando group were trained, the intelligence service and the engineer (unintelligible) strategy. So we made several rehearsals about this intervention and everything was okay. The only thing is that we have to wait for the optimal conditions for this rescue operation.
04:46: Charlie Rose: And what was optimal condition?
04:49: Alberto Fujimori: Was when the most four bloodiest terrorists came to downstairs and play soccer. And at least there should be 10 people there of the terrorists and not one hostage in first floor.
05:05: Charlie Rose: But they did that every day at 3: 00 o'clock, did they not?
05:12: Alberto Fujimori: Not usually. It not always happened that the ringleaders come downstairs.
05:21: Charlie Rose: How did you know what was going on inside?
05:27: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah. Well, we know everything about inside.
05:33: Charlie Rose: I know.
05:37: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah.
05:40: Charlie Rose: How did you get your information?
05:43: Alberto Fujimori: Oh, it's part of the Peruvian technology what intelligence service with many kind of devices, (unintelligible) devices and watching with periscope or watching from the neighboring buildings.
05:58: Charlie Rose: But did you have people take microphones inside?
06:04: Alberto Fujimori: Well, we know information through many ways of communication. I cannot reveal what kind of devices.
06:13: Charlie Rose: But the suggestion is that doctors took microphones inside when they went in.
06:19: Alberto Fujimori: No, that's not true.
06:22: Charlie Rose: Not true?
06:25: Alberto Fujimori: Not the doctor, not the members of the (unintelligible) committee, not the International Red Cross, of course.
06:38: Charlie Rose: None of those people--
06:41: Alberto Fujimori: No, no.
06:43: Charlie Rose: --were party to any--
06:46: Alberto Fujimori: We have just technology (unintelligible) to have that information inside.
06:51: Charlie Rose: You didn't worry that this thing could go badly and it would mean the end of your presidency because you would be so roundly criticized that you could never regain the confidence--
07:06: Alberto Fujimori: I--
07:09: Charlie Rose: --of your own citizens or the world.
07:11: Alberto Fujimori: I wouldn't risk the life of the hostages. And don't forget that among the hostages was my brother.
07:20: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
07:23: Alberto Fujimori: So when I took this decision, I gave the order. I was convinced that the success of this operation was assured. So there was no risk in that sense.
07:36: Charlie Rose: No risk. You-- I mean, it sounds so easy now.
07:40: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah, but before, also, at least for me, when at 3: 17 the official of intelligence called me, I asked, ''Which of the situation is this?'' ''This is the optimal situation.'' ''So go ahead now.'' ''Please repeat the order,'' he said to me. ''Go ahead'' and he transmitted to the general commander (unintelligible)
07:56: Charlie Rose: So he asked you to repeat the ''go ahead'' order.
08:00: Alberto Fujimori: Yes. And the general commander of the army also-- ''Please repeat the order.'' ''Go ahead.'' They was-- they wanted to be sure that I have decided to go ahead because-- no, it was-- it was not easy, of course. It was delicate. But everything was-- every element was on the table and we could watch it.
08:22: Charlie Rose: Would you have preferred to provide safe passage for the kidnappers, rather than having to have stormed the building?
08:28: Alberto Fujimori: Sure.
08:30: Charlie Rose: You would have-- you would have done that in a day.
08:33: Alberto Fujimori: Sure.
08:35: Charlie Rose: You would have given them safe passage out of Peru. You wouldn't have released any of their colleagues from prison, but you would have given them safe passage out of the country.
08:45: Alberto Fujimori: We have made exhaust all efforts to arrive to that point, but it was impossible.
08:48: Charlie Rose: Now comes the thing that's most troubling to the world community, as you know. No kidnappers survived. The leader's throat was slit, I've read. They were shot multiple times, far more than was necessary to kill them. How do you explain that?
09:10: Alberto Fujimori: This was real combat and it was much difficult combat than expected. We calculate in the rehearsal that it would last only six minutes and it lasted 60 minutes. And some part of the operation was not (unintelligible). For example, there was a blast in the roof. This was not (unintelligible) Why there was a blast in the roof was because a big resistance on the part of the terrorists. There was a real combat and two people of our commandos died. So the commandos were not going to risk their life. This was a real combat.
09:58: Charlie Rose: Now, here's the other question. Did some people raise their hands to surrender and they were then shot?
10:13: Alberto Fujimori: That's not true.
10:18: Charlie Rose: Not true.
10:23: Alberto Fujimori: Not true. Everybody were with their weapons, with their (unintelligible) and it was a very dangerous situation.
10:37: Charlie Rose: No-- was there an order to take no prisoners?
10:43: Alberto Fujimori: No. The order was to rescue the 72 hostages alive. About terrorists, the commander have to fight.
10:55: Charlie Rose: Not one terrorist survived.
10:58: Alberto Fujimori: No one terrorist. This was not a terrorist rescue operation.
11:04: Charlie Rose: You weren't interested in the terrorists, you were interested in the hostages.
11:12: Alberto Fujimori: Of course, as everybody would do, as everybody government. But there was not an order to kill the terrorists in any way.
11:22: Charlie Rose: Beyond what was necessary to rescue the hostages.
11:26: Alberto Fujimori: Sure. Right.
11:30: Charlie Rose: Do you think there was any excessive force applied?
11:35: Alberto Fujimori: No. It was the--
11:39: Charlie Rose: Beyond whatever the order was.
11:42: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah. It was necessary and sufficient. We couldn't risk the life of the hostages. And this was well-calculated. It-- at the beginning, everybody was nervous because they were seeing these blasts, these explosions everywhere, fire and so on. I was quiet because I have seen the rehearsal, that this was going as (unintelligible) with some exception. And so the amount of commandos, the amount of blasts, were well-calculated. That's why I said this was (unintelligible) strategy.
12:27: Charlie Rose: What lessons are there to be learned from this successful mission?
12:36: Alberto Fujimori: That democracy has to be stand firm and not to give into terrorists. This is not only a message for Peruvians, but I think that all states must stand firm against terrorists.
12:54: Charlie Rose: The Japanese are very happy that you were so successful and your soldiers did their job so well. They're not so happy that they didn't know beforehand about the mission. How do you explain that to them?
13:16: Alberto Fujimori: Well, let me say that the Japanese was not-- they didn't agree to make this kind of military intervention.
13:25: Charlie Rose: They did not agree? They did not want it?
13:32: Alberto Fujimori: They did not want it. Even there was police report that it was impossible to storm into the building. So when the decision was taken, there was not one second lost. That's why I didn't inform to the prime minister. Of course, now--
14:00: Charlie Rose: I don't-- what--
14:02: Alberto Fujimori: --the Japanese are happy because of the success. Peruvian took the whole responsibility by ourselves.
14:12: Charlie Rose: Yeah. So if it had gone badly, then the Japanese would have had reason to say, ''Well, you didn't even tell us you were going to do this.''
14:24: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah, but they have this comprehension because the situation was unmanageable at that moment.
14:33: Charlie Rose: Are you getting a lot of calls from other countries, saying, ''Can you teach us how to rescue hostages?''
14:43: Alberto Fujimori: Yes, there are some countries, some intelligence and some army people who are asking for Peru--
14:50: Charlie Rose: So they're flying into Lima to go to school.
14:53: Alberto Fujimori: Well, I think that we make clear (unintelligible) school for fighting terrorists--
14:57: Charlie Rose: Oh, really?
14:59: Alberto Fujimori: --or for making rescue operations.
15:04: Charlie Rose: Compare your feeling on the moment that you realized this mission had been successful and no hostages had been killed with any other high point of your life. How does it compare?
15:17: Alberto Fujimori: I think that this was one of the most delicate moments of my life. Probably this gave me the most relief I have ever had and also, at the same time, a satisfaction because of the general success, and at the same time, a regret for the life lost.
15:40: Charlie Rose: Of one hostage, who was a state--
15:43: Alberto Fujimori: Of one hostage, two commando--
15:45: Charlie Rose: --a supreme court justice, wasn't it?
15:47: Alberto Fujimori: --and several young terrorists, also.
15:51: Charlie Rose: Right. Do you have some sympathy for the lives of those terrorists?
15:57: Alberto Fujimori: For the young people, I was--
15:59: Charlie Rose: They were 17, 18--
16:01: Alberto Fujimori: I think--
16:04: Charlie Rose: --years old.
16:06: Alberto Fujimori: Yes, very young people who were captured by the ringleaders offering them some new lives, something like that. But they were innocent people.
16:18: Charlie Rose: What would have happened to the terrorists if they'd all surrendered after the first firefight, the remaining ones had surrendered, said, ''We give up. We have no weapons. Take us.''
16:34: Alberto Fujimori: Oh, that's--
16:37: Charlie Rose: What would have happened to them?
16:40: Alberto Fujimori: That I cannot very well precise because one may speculate here on the table in theory, but when you are in the battlefield, you have to take fast decision. Probably some of them would be taken prisoner, if it's safe for everybody, for the commando and for the hostage. If there are some risk from other terrorists, because they have hiding grenade--
17:10: Charlie Rose: Right.
17:12: Alberto Fujimori: --then--
17:14: Charlie Rose: Hiding grenades.
17:16: Alberto Fujimori: Yes. They had everywhere-- everywhere, everybody.
17:20: Charlie Rose: Why did it take so long?
17:23: Alberto Fujimori: Because we were waiting for a peaceful way out. At some moment, we were confident that this would arrive.
17:33: Charlie Rose: That there would be a moment.
17:36: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah.
17:39: Charlie Rose: On the night after this, I speculated on this idea, since you and I have spoken frankly with other many times about your wife and about everything else.
17:48: Alberto Fujimori: Yes.
17:52: Charlie Rose: That this might make you indebted to your military.
18:02: Alberto Fujimori: This is not true because, first, I command the design of the strategy with a team of military and (unintelligible) Second, I gave the order. Was not the military. And as always, I represent the civil power in Peru. There is not a military power in Peru. The military are-- the army are part of the Peruvian state. It's not anymore a power. Peru is one of the exceptions of that-- where the military does not command.
18:52: Charlie Rose: But I would assume a military man might say to you-- you're commander-in-chief-- might say, ''Your poll numbers were down. You were not as popular as you have been before this. And we went in there and we did a picture-perfect mission. Sadly, one hostage's life was lost and perhaps others suffered injuries. So we saved your''--
19:25: Alberto Fujimori: They cannot do that because I have a very strong command of the army. Very strong.
19:38: Charlie Rose: There's also this question that you and I have talked about before. How much of a democrat -- small ''D'' -- are you? Some say, ''He's a democrat, but more than anything else, he's a can-do pragmatist, and that if, in fact, democracy, has to be suspended in order to achieve some greater good, wherever that is true, he's prepared to do it. He likes democracy, but he's not in love with it.''
20:15: Alberto Fujimori: My government in '92 saved the Peruvian democracy. The democracy was in danger because of the menace of these two terrorist groups, Shining Path and Tupac Amaru.
20:30: Charlie Rose: Right.
20:35: Alberto Fujimori: What I did was to take drastic measures, certainly, and now we are in this process of full democratization of this state. What happens also is that Peruvian president thinks very firm in his position, certainly, but in the framework of the constitution and the law. There are free prayers, free opinion. So everything is working for consolidating democracy.
21:20: Charlie Rose: What are the consequences of this mission that was seen around the world on television, with you going in moments afterwards, with your flak jacket on, hand high, when cameras recognized you? What has it meant for Peru? What does it mean for the Peruvian people? How do we assess the consequences?
21:48: Alberto Fujimori: For the Peruvian people it is that they will take more confidence in their own future, as they do have it, but stronger now. And for Peru, it's seen as a state where internal security is guaranteed by the government and there is many opportunities for investment.
22:20: Charlie Rose: What's the relationship with Japan today?
22:27: Alberto Fujimori: Oh, it's as always, optimal. Now--
22:31: Charlie Rose: Optimal?
22:33: Alberto Fujimori: --better.
22:35: Charlie Rose: Now better?
22:37: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah. Sure.
22:39: Charlie Rose: How about the United States?
22:40: Alberto Fujimori: Oh, we have a very friendly relationship. Also, I would say it's very good level.
22:49: Charlie Rose: Your economy-- did you find that there was this result? People said, ''I'm going to invest in Peru''--
22:55: Alberto Fujimori: Yes.
22:58: Charlie Rose: --''because Fujimori's going to take care of business. We have confidence in him to maintain order, to ensure stability, to protect democracy and not make his country victimization-- victims of terrorists.''
23:20: Alberto Fujimori: We are institutionalizing these concepts. People are thinking in this (unintelligible) you mention. So investors may see Peru as a good place because everybody believes in these principles.
23:43: Charlie Rose: What's necessary, based on your experience in this ordeal, to deal with terrorism around the world?
23:56: Alberto Fujimori: Not make much more rhetoric, speeches or shows, agreements, but act against terrorists with firm hand.
24:08: Charlie Rose: Firm hand?
24:12: Alberto Fujimori: Yes.
24:16: Charlie Rose: What's next for you?
24:21: Alberto Fujimori: Continue making my governor more efficient, fighting poverty, attracting investment, attracting tourists and consolidating this stabilization, peace, order, democracy.
24:39: Charlie Rose: Yeah. People should invest in Peru because?
24:47: Alberto Fujimori: Because the legislation assures their investment. They are the optimal opportunity, optimal condition for their investment. There are a good projection for our economy. We expect to grow 5 percent a year during the next (unintelligible) years.
25:11: Charlie Rose: Five percent?
25:13: Alberto Fujimori: A year.
25:15: Charlie Rose: Economic growth?
25:17: Alberto Fujimori: Yes.
25:18: Charlie Rose: We in the United--
25:20: Alberto Fujimori: Inflation down from 8 percent.
25:22: Charlie Rose: To?
25:23: Alberto Fujimori: Eight percent.
25:25: Charlie Rose: To 8 percent?
25:26: Alberto Fujimori: Yes.
25:27: Charlie Rose: So you've got to reduce inflation even more.
25:29: Alberto Fujimori: Right.
25:30: Charlie Rose: But economic growth at 5 percent's pretty good, in any--
25:33: Alberto Fujimori: Oh, yeah.
25:35: Charlie Rose: --economy.
25:36: Alberto Fujimori: We have got 12 percent growth in 1994.
25:38: Charlie Rose: Yeah. In '94, you had 12 percent?
25:41: Alberto Fujimori: Yeah. That's (unintelligible) for our country.
25:45: Charlie Rose: Thank you for coming. It's a pleasure to see you again.
25:48: Alberto Fujimori: Thank you, sir.
25:50: Charlie Rose: ALBERTO FUJIMORI, president of Peru, back for a fifth visit on this program, coming to the United States, was at the Council on Foreign Relations today, I guess returns to Peru tomorrow?
25:57: Alberto Fujimori: After tomorrow.
26:00: Charlie Rose: Day after tomorrow. We'll be right back. Stay with us. 'Best Seat in the House' Filmmaker SPIKE LEE has been a New York Knicks fan since his childhood days in Brooklyn. In the fall of 1969, he was a 12-year-old hoping the Knicks would steal an NBA title from Bill Russell's Celtics, who had won 10 of 11 previous NBA titles. Spike's hope has proved to be never-ending and today he has become a permanent fixture at almost every Knicks game. In his new book, Best Seat in the House: A Basketball Memoir, he tells how he worked his way down from the nosebleed section to courtside. And I am pleased to have him especially this evening. We tape this show this Friday at about 5: 00 o'clock so that you can get to the Garden at 8: 00 o'clock in order to watch your New York Knicks without--
26:50: Spike Lee: Well, not only my team--
26:52: Charlie Rose: --Patrick--
26:54: Spike Lee: --but--
26:55: Charlie Rose: About my team, too.
26:57: Spike Lee: Everybody's team.
26:58: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
26:59: Spike Lee: Without Patrick, without Allan Houston and Charlie Ward.
27:01: Charlie Rose: Yeah. And you firmly believe-- and this is not sort of whistling in the dark--
27:05: Spike Lee: (unintelligible)
27:07: Charlie Rose: --that they're going to win.
27:09: Spike Lee: They're going to win tonight.
27:10: Charlie Rose: How are they going to win?
27:12: Spike Lee: Because they're going to win. They're going to-- we only-- they only have nine players--
27:16: Charlie Rose: You sound like my mother. ''Why can't I do this?'' ''Because.'' ''Because what?'' ''Because I said so.''
27:21: Spike Lee: No, Charlie, seriously, the other players are going to step up. The energy tonight in the Garden is going to be unbelievable. They're going to draw on the ghost of Willis Reed.
27:31: Charlie Rose: Yes, I know, hobbling out.
27:32: Spike Lee: When Willis hobbled out--
27:34: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
27:35: Spike Lee: --onto the court for game 7 against the Lakers, a game we talk about--
27:38: Charlie Rose: Right.
27:40: Spike Lee: --in the book, where I went to. And also, in fact, game 5 that series, when Willis Reed down there-- when Willis went down in the beginning of the game, the Knicks came back and won and beat L.A. and had Dave DeBusschere and Dave Stoll (sp? ) holding Wilt Chamberlain and they still beat them. So they're going to win tonight.
27:55: Charlie Rose: All right. Tell me-- I'll come back to the match-ups and those kind of things and how you see the game. What do you think of the suspension? Do you think that the league had no choice, it was fair, or it was a gross violation of due process?
28:06: Spike Lee: Gross violation. There's no way. Number one, Patrick Ewing-- there have to be some-- I know what the book says, but there should be interpretation of the law. And Patrick Ewing didn't even come over to where the fracas was and he's going to have to sit out tonight. And I don't think that Charlie Ward was trying to low-bridge P.J. Brown. (crosstalk)
28:31: Charlie Rose: I don't think he was, either. To what advantage?
28:35: Spike Lee: He was just boxing him out.
28:37: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
28:40: Spike Lee: And for P.J. Brown to throw a good Christian like Charlie Ward, who prays every day on his knees, and throw him on his head, you know, was uncalled for. And Pat Riley-- you know, he's behind this.
28:53: Charlie Rose: You think so?
28:55: Spike Lee: Yes. He had those guys-- I wish somehow somebody had a videotape or tape recorder of what he said to his players before--
29:04: Charlie Rose: In the locker room before--
29:06: Spike Lee: --in the locker room.
29:08: Charlie Rose: --they came out.
29:11: Spike Lee: Or that practice.
29:13: Charlie Rose: What do you think he might have said?
29:16: Spike Lee: ''Go for broke.'' You know, ''Challenge people's manhood so therefore they equate that with physical play.'' And but--
29:22: Charlie Rose: Here's what he said to them, probably. He said to them, probably, ''You know what? They think this is over and it is over unless you can prove to them that you're stronger and better than they are. And if you can't prove to them that you're stronger and better than they are, it's over and everything we believed in ourselves was not true. Are we who we think we are or not?''
29:45: Spike Lee: You know, the quotes from Pat Riley today-- or yesterday, saying that ''Charlie Ward instigated this, Charlie Ward still thinks he's at Florida State''-- come on, Pat.
29:53: Charlie Rose: More than that. He said-- you know, that, and he said that the New York Knicks had to create an incident.
30:00: Spike Lee: And then he says, ''Well, you know, I did coach the Knicks, so maybe you could blame some of that on me, but-- they were wild when I had them and they're even wilder now.''
30:08: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
30:10: Spike Lee: Get out of here!
30:12: Charlie Rose: He said, ''That teams has my personality.''
30:16: Spike Lee: Well, it's kind of sad that Pat Riley and I were born on the same day, too-- March 20th.
30:22: Charlie Rose: Now, is part of your love for the Knicks in this particular series also-- a part of your enthusiasm for this series that you want to see Pat Riley lose?
30:30: Spike Lee: I don't know. I don't really-- I mean, I have no big qualms about Pat Riley. I'm thinking more about Michael Jordan and just the Heat just happens to be the team that's in the way and once we dispense with them, then it's on to big and better things. And Michael and the Bulls have been in the Knicks way for many, many-- too many years and I really feel in my heart, and I know Patrick Ewing has expressed this, too, that this is the year where we finally get over the hump.
31:04: Charlie Rose: You can make an argument, as others have done on this program, that among the teams in the
31:14: Nba This Year: I think that-- even if you look at the play-offs last year, where the Knicks lost to Chicago four games to one, they played them, you know, even, and the fact that the Knicks had no offense, that's why they lost the games. But the acquisitions of Allan Houston and Larry Johnson and Chris Charles and Buck Williams-- we have some firepower now. And the key game was the last regular season game of the year, where the Knicks beat Chicago in Chicago in the United Center. And I think besides Michael Jordan, I probably think the rest of the Bulls are all worried about the Knicks.
31:55: Charlie Rose: Besides Michael Jordan?
31:57: Spike Lee: Except Michael Jordan.
31:59: Charlie Rose: He's not worried?
32:01: Spike Lee: Not him. But I'm talking about the rest of those guys.
32:04: Charlie Rose: Michael Jordan-- you know Michael Jordan. You've worked with him. He's your friend.
32:10: Spike Lee: Right.
32:13: Charlie Rose: He thinks they can't lose.
32:15: Spike Lee: Well, I--
32:18: Charlie Rose: Right? Because--
32:20: Spike Lee: --think any--
32:22: Charlie Rose: --he thinks--
32:23: Spike Lee: --any--
32:25: Charlie Rose: --he's not prepared to take defeat.
32:26: Spike Lee: Any true warrior, any true competitor, will never-- will never even consider the thought that they're about to lose. That's what has made Michael Jordan so great. He's a great competitor, not just-- he competes not only when he's playing basketball, but tiddlywinks, craps, you know, ping-pong, golf. He hates to lose. And for me, what really-- what makes great ball players-- a great ball player is not just doing stuff-- you know, just doing whatever sport you are. A great player elevates his teammates and Mike makes a lot of those guys on Chicago who'd be scrubs on a lot other teams, if you placed them in different scenarios-- he makes these guys look like they're great and I think that's how you gauge whether somebody is a great-- how does he make his-- does he elevate his teammates' games? And money does that.
33:13: Charlie Rose: Does Patrick Ewing do that for the Knicks?
33:17: Spike Lee: He's not done that--
33:19: Charlie Rose: Not as consistently.
33:21: Spike Lee: Not consistently and you can't-- you can't-- he doesn't own up to-- he can't compare to Michael, when you talk about that category.
33:29: Charlie Rose: Yeah. Now, I'll tell you what's interesting, is Grant Hill understands that that's what he has to do for the Pistons.
33:37: Spike Lee: You know, I just wish they'd change his-- those commercials, man. They--
33:42: Charlie Rose: You just hate those commercials?
33:44: Spike Lee: Hate 'em.
33:45: Charlie Rose: How about--
33:46: Spike Lee: And it's not-- it's not because I'm affiliated with Nike or he's with Fields. (sp? ) It's just kind of-- just plain too much in this goody-goody--
33:55: Charlie Rose: Yeah, I agree. I agree. (crosstalk) I love the Michael Jordan commercials where he goes out and talks about, ''They didn't think I''--
34:02: Spike Lee: ''How many shots I've missed'' and--
34:03: Charlie Rose: Yeah, a failure and ''failure made me better,'' right? Now, you didn't make those, did you?
34:08: Spike Lee: No.
34:10: Charlie Rose: Who made those, do you know?
34:11: Spike Lee: White and Kenney (sp? ) is Nike's agency.
34:14: Charlie Rose: Okay. So they made them. They made a couple of them. One is that and the other is about he's getting old or-- and that was the one--
34:20: Spike Lee: Right. The one he's in a weight room and he's dunking.
34:23: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
34:25: Spike Lee: The other one he's coming in to play his entrance.
34:28: Charlie Rose: This book, SPIKE LEE, Best Seat in the House-- how did it come about?
34:32: Spike Lee: Well, Steve Ross, who's an editor at Crown Publishing, in fact-- it's kind of funny. It was at game 5 last year, at halftime, when the Bulls eliminated the Knicks in the play-offs, and Steve came up to me and he said-- and introduced himself and said, ''I'm the person responsible for Dennis Rodman's book.'' So I was thinking, ''I don't know if that's a good way to introduce yourself,'' because I've flipped through that book and as far as literary or literature, that's like a 2nd-grade-- but anyway, I didn't hold it against him and I-- and he said, ''Give me a call when you get back to New York.'' And we had lunch and he said that, ''I think that if you dig deep enough, you have enough in you, with your experience with the game and growing up a Knicks fan from back in the early years, that you might have a book in you.'' And I thought about it and I decided I did and I got Ralph Wylie-- (sp? )
35:22: Charlie Rose: Right, he's--
35:23: Spike Lee: --a great writer--
35:25: Charlie Rose: --a great writer.
35:27: Spike Lee: Ralph and I wrote together the book on the making of Malcolm X. Ralph was a sports writer for the Oakland Tribune and Sports Illustrated for many years. And so we started working on it and we're very pleased with it. And I think that the mark that this is a good book, people who don't even understand basketball or sports can still appreciate this book and that was really-- the goal was kind of, like, to find a high-wire act because you really don't want to get too deep into basketball because then, you know, it might go over people's head.
35:54: Charlie Rose: Yeah. What is it about basketball for you?
35:59: Spike Lee: Just-- you know, I-- first of all, like I say, Charlie, that I love sports and my love of sports was handed down to me from my father, who always told us growing up that he was a great athlete, that he was a shortstop on the baseball team, the point guard, the quarterback. And so he instilled his love of sports into his sons and his daughter. And I guess I was born at the right time, when-- you know, back when I-- my age-- people my age, the first sport you're introduced to is basketball. Then comes, you know, football and basketball, but the time I got introduced to basketball, that's when the Knicks were starting to come together and Willis Reed was--
36:44: Charlie Rose: This was Willis Reed--
36:47: Spike Lee: --and DeBusschere--
36:49: Charlie Rose: --DeBusschere--
36:51: Spike Lee: --and Bill Bradley--
36:53: Charlie Rose: --Bradley, Frazier--
36:54: Spike Lee: --and Walt Frazier and--
36:56: Charlie Rose: --Earl Monroe--
36:57: Spike Lee: --Earl Monroe and Red Holtzman. And so that was just a great time to be a kid in New York, with Joe Namath on the Jets and so-- and the Mets in '69. So I've just followed basketball. I think that it's the one sport where you really see a person's personality or where an athlete can truly express himself. They're running around out there in their underwear. You know, football, you don't ever see the guys's faces, for the most part. I mean, except, you don't-- nobody knows who's-- what those guys look like except Michael Irving and a couple quarterbacks. But basketball is a very simple game-- pure, but at the same time, you know, allows people to improvise and a lot of-- you know, and even in-- even in the book, Woody Allen makes a correlation-- an analogy between jazz-- improvisation in jazz and basketball.
37:41: Charlie Rose: And you agree with it.
37:43: Spike Lee: Yes. Woody was right.
37:47: Charlie Rose: Your father was a jazz musician, wasn't he?
37:50: Spike Lee: Yes, still is.
37:51: Charlie Rose: Still is.
37:53: Spike Lee: Yes.
37:54: Charlie Rose: Can you play the game?
37:56: Spike Lee: No, not really. I mean, I could play when all the kids-- when we were all the same size but, you know, I stopped growing, so I just left it alone. But I still play sports. I play softball.
38:06: Charlie Rose: You know about-- (crosstalk)
38:07: Spike Lee: Well, Muggsy's (sp? ) a freak of nature. I know Muggsy's five-three, but that's a miracle.
38:12: Charlie Rose: That he is so good--
38:13: Spike Lee: Yes.
38:15: Charlie Rose: --and can move the ball around as well-- because the Hornets might well have been much more-- no, listen to me-- much more effective in that series if he'd been healthy.
38:21: Spike Lee: All right. They maybe would have won one game then and not got swept.
38:26: Charlie Rose: Yeah. What else in this book we ought to talk about here? I mean, you talk about some of the games-- The Best Seat in the House-- the main thing that you deserve enormous credit for-- you sit there and everybody knows you sit right there on the front row, but you didn't start there. You started up in the--
38:41: Spike Lee: Blue seats.
38:42: Charlie Rose: --rafters, in the blue seats.
38:44: Spike Lee: The blue seats.
38:46: Charlie Rose: You bought your first season ticket when?
38:47: Spike Lee: The day after the Knicks got Patrick Ewing in the lottery. The day after, I was down--
38:52: Charlie Rose: What'd you do? You went down to-- somebody-- did you--
38:56: Spike Lee: Well, as soon as the Knicks got Patrick Ewing in the lottery pick, I called up the Garden and they said, ''Tickets go on sale 8: 00 o'clock.'' I was there at 5: 00 o'clock the next morning.
39:02: Charlie Rose: You were?
39:04: Spike Lee: Yeah.
39:06: Charlie Rose: Now, how old were you?
39:07: Spike Lee: That's when--
39:09: Charlie Rose: You've been there what, 10, 12 years, so--
39:10: Spike Lee: I was 25. I was 25.
39:12: Charlie Rose: You are what now? You're--
39:15: Spike Lee: Forty.
39:16: Charlie Rose: Forty now. So that was 15 years ago.
39:18: Spike Lee: Well, I-- as long as Patrick Ewing's been a Knick, that's how long I've had season tickets.
39:22: Charlie Rose: Yeah. And then you trade them up? How does that work?
39:25: Spike Lee: Well, every film they moved me down.
39:26: Charlie Rose: You mean they would move you down?
39:27: Spike Lee: The Garden management.
39:28: Charlie Rose: Oh, really?
39:29: Spike Lee: Uh-huh.
39:30: Charlie Rose: So every time you'd make a film--
39:31: Spike Lee: Yeah.
39:32: Charlie Rose: --they would appreciate you more--
39:33: Spike Lee: Well, I don't know about appreciation, but they just knew who I was more or I got more acclaim, whatever, so they would just move me down. And that's where-- where I sit now, four years ago they weren't selling those seats. Those were, like, the VIP seats.
39:40: Charlie Rose: Right.
39:41: Spike Lee: And then I got-- on the down low, I got the word that next year they're going to sell them.
39:44: Charlie Rose: You got what? They were going to sell them.
39:47: Spike Lee: Yes. So I just kept faxing the Garden every day, every day, ''Put me on the list when you do put these seats up for sale.'' And so when they did, my name was on the list and so I've had those seats--
39:55: Charlie Rose: How much--
39:56: Spike Lee: Paying dearly for them!
39:58: Charlie Rose: I know they are. How much do you pay per game for those seats?
40:00: Spike Lee: Regular season?
40:02: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
40:03: Spike Lee: This year?
40:05: Charlie Rose: Regular season this year.
40:07: Spike Lee: I have two seats, so it's $1,000 a game.
40:09: Charlie Rose: A thousand dollars a game.
40:11: Spike Lee: Per seat.
40:12: Charlie Rose: And how many games did you go to?
40:13: Spike Lee: This year--
40:14: Charlie Rose: How many did you miss, maybe is a better question.
40:16: Spike Lee: I probably missed, like, five, six games this year.
40:18: Charlie Rose: So you were there from the beginning of the season all the way through.
40:20: Spike Lee: They raise the seats for play-offs.
40:21: Charlie Rose: They do what?
40:22: Spike Lee: They raise--
40:23: Charlie Rose: Oh, the tickets become more expensive for play-offs.
40:24: Spike Lee: Yeah.
40:25: Charlie Rose: So you pay what, $1,000, $1,200, $1,500?
40:27: Spike Lee: Fifteen hundred.
40:28: Charlie Rose: Fifteen hundred. And your wife, pregnant with--
40:30: Spike Lee: Our second child.
40:31: Charlie Rose: --your second child--
40:32: Spike Lee: She's not going--
40:33: Charlie Rose: Not going tonight. So you're taking your stock broker or somebody like that.
40:35: Spike Lee: Right.
40:36: Charlie Rose: And who'd you take the other night, when I saw you there?
40:38: Spike Lee: My father-in-law.
40:39: Charlie Rose: Your father-in-law was there.
40:40: Spike Lee: Right.
40:41: Charlie Rose: Okay. So man, you--
40:43: Spike Lee: We got a whole-- head of the line!
40:44: Charlie Rose: Yeah, that celebrity line is right there where you are.
40:46: Spike Lee: No, I'm not talking about-- (crosstalk)
40:48: Charlie Rose: Oh, you mean a line of people who want to get in line-- (crosstalk)
40:49: Spike Lee: Yeah. They let me know. ''Spike,'' you know, ''Tiny can't go tonight.''
40:53: Charlie Rose: ''I'm your man!''
40:55: Spike Lee: ''I'm your man.''
40:55: Charlie Rose: ''I'm your person.'' The joy of it-- your favorite player is whom?
40:57: Spike Lee: Of all time?
40:58: Charlie Rose: Uh-huh.
41:00: Spike Lee: Walt Frazier.
41:01: Charlie Rose: Is it really?
41:02: Spike Lee: Uh-huh. Clyde.
41:04: Charlie Rose: You love Clyde.
41:05: Spike Lee: Love Clyde. He was so smooth. When I bought the Pumas-- remember the Pumas--
41:09: Charlie Rose: Oh, yeah.
41:10: Spike Lee: --with the--
41:12: Charlie Rose: But moreso than Earl ''The Pearl,'' moreso than--
41:14: Spike Lee: Oh, yeah, I love Earl, too, but you have to remember Earl wasn't a Knick first. He played on the hated Baltimore Bullets and--
41:20: Charlie Rose: That's right.
41:21: Spike Lee: --and he used to kill us, so--
41:22: Charlie Rose: The hated Baltimore Bullets are coming back as the Baltimore-- as the Capital Wizards or something.
41:27: Spike Lee: Yeah.
41:29: Charlie Rose: The new team.
41:30: Spike Lee: The Washington Wizards.
41:32: Charlie Rose: Yeah, Washington Wizards.
41:33: Spike Lee: Terrible name.
41:34: Charlie Rose: Yeah, but Weber (sp? ) has had a fabulous year. Juwan Howard has--
41:37: Spike Lee: Oh, I wish they would have won at least one game from Chicago, though, but-- no, they're the team up and coming.
41:40: Charlie Rose: Yeah. I read this book, I'll-- look at this picture here on the back. There he is, as a young man on the streets of Brooklyn.
41:45: Spike Lee: Six or seven right there. Ragamuffin, huh?
41:48: Charlie Rose: Ragamuffin? Yeah. You were-- you-- this is your favorite sport?
41:51: Spike Lee: Yes.
41:53: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
41:54: Spike Lee: Favorite sport.
41:56: Charlie Rose: You'll go to Chicago.
41:58: Spike Lee: Well--
42:00: Charlie Rose: Or you will not go to Chicago because you--
42:01: Spike Lee: We've got--
42:02: Charlie Rose: --got a little family problem.
42:04: Spike Lee: Family problem is that-- as you stated before, Charlie, my wife-- we're expecting our second child.
42:08: Charlie Rose: So she's not going to be traveling.
42:10: Spike Lee: We're not talking about her. We're talking about me.
42:13: Charlie Rose: I'm getting it.
42:15: Spike Lee: She's told me that-- she's intimated the locks might be changed if I-- if I go to a road game.
42:19: Charlie Rose: If you leave town.
42:21: Spike Lee: If I leave town. Intimated. She hasn't stated that fully, but the intimation is there. (crosstalk)
42:28: Charlie Rose: I love it. I love it! So we have what--
42:30: Spike Lee: So that's why-- (crosstalk) I didn't go to Charlotte. I didn't go to Miami.
42:34: Charlie Rose: So we have what's called here a moral choice.
42:38: Spike Lee: You know, I have-- there's nothing in the book, though-- you know, game 7 with the Knicks, when they beat the Lakers--
42:43: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
42:44: Spike Lee: That same night -- this is in the book -- my father gave a concert. The same night. My mother gave me a choice. She said, ''Spike,'' you know, ''I think you're a mature teenager. Now, look, either you can choose to go see your father's concert, and you know he would like you to be there, or you can go to the game.'' Game 7, it's tied up 3-3. The Knicks win, this'll be their first NBA championship.
43:07: Charlie Rose: What'd you do?
43:09: Spike Lee: What do you think?
43:12: Charlie Rose: You went to the game!
43:14: Spike Lee: Hey, I said, ''I can see my father any time.''
43:16: Charlie Rose: I've got $50 in my pocket.
43:18: Spike Lee: So what?
43:20: Charlie Rose: Here's the bet. You're going to go to Chicago. You cannot stay away.
43:25: Spike Lee: One game?
43:27: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
43:29: Spike Lee: I won't be there Sunday.
43:31: Charlie Rose: Okay, but there's a series going on. It's not going to just be one game.
43:35: Spike Lee: I'll be at one game.
43:37: Charlie Rose: You'll go?
43:39: Spike Lee: Yeah.
43:41: Charlie Rose: So what's she going to say? She's going to lock-- she's going to--
43:44: Spike Lee: Well-- (crosstalk) With your $50, I can change the locks back!
43:47: Charlie Rose: You're not taking this--
43:49: Spike Lee: I can-- what?
43:51: Charlie Rose: You're not taking this-- you think she's just playing with you?
43:54: Spike Lee: No, she looked kind of serious when she intimated that.
43:56: Charlie Rose: Yeah. Now, come on. This is your baby that's going to be born. I mean, doesn't a father--
44:03: Spike Lee: I'm going to be there when the baby--
44:04: Charlie Rose: What are you going to do, talk to God about when this baby's going to be born and say--
44:09: Spike Lee: No. We were trying-- I was saying, ''You know, we should induce this.'' (crosstalk)
44:13: Charlie Rose: Is that's right? Is it possible?
44:14: Spike Lee: It's 38 weeks! Charlie--
44:17: Charlie Rose: You would--
44:19: Spike Lee: Our first child-- our first child was born at 38 weeks, so the baby's fully developed. The doctor told us yesterday--
44:23: Charlie Rose: Oh, no!
44:25: Spike Lee: --the lungs are fully developed.
44:27: Charlie Rose: Tell me you didn't do this!
44:29: Spike Lee: The lungs are fully developed. Every day, Tai's (sp? ) saying, ''Oh, I can't take this anymore! I wish the baby would come.'' The doctor said, ''Well, we could-- we could help you.''
44:40: Charlie Rose: So you are actively considering induced labor.
44:42: Spike Lee: Well, that's a medical possibility! (crosstalk)
44:45: Charlie Rose: I'm taking my $50 off the table.
44:47: Spike Lee: One game, maybe. Maybe game 7, if there is-- if there is a game 7.
44:51: Charlie Rose: All right. I want to show you on the sidelines. This was a game I happened to be at, sitting a few seats up from you. Roll tape. SPIKE LEE on the sidelines, Madison Square Garden, the New York Knicks versus the Chicago Bulls, last game of the season, in which the Bulls visited the Garden to play the Knicks. Here it is. Michael had a brilliant game.
45:35: Spike Lee: I'll bet you $10.
45:41: Fan: Oh, done!
45:47: Spike Lee: The
45:52: Nba 6th Man Of The Year: Done. (unintelligible) lot of confidence.
46:04: Spike Lee: I just bet him $10. I said that Stark's going to win the 6th man NBA of the year. Get up, Scotty! (unintelligible) killing us! Defense! (unintelligible) Good call! Good call! Good call! Three! It's good, John! Hit it, baby! Hit it! Yeah! Yeah! Look at that! Look at that! Call it! Hey, that was flagrant! That was flagrant! That was absolutely to the Adam's apple! That's not flagrant? That's a zone! That's a zone! Three! This guy right here! Scotty!
47:08: Charlie Rose: All right!
47:11: Spike Lee: Now, that's where-- that's how Patrick hurt his knee, with Dennis Rodman trying to low-bridge him there.
47:16: Charlie Rose: Yeah. Was that a low bridge?
47:19: Spike Lee: Oh, that was obvious, that one.
47:21: Charlie Rose: Yeah. What do you think of Dennis Rodman?
47:24: Spike Lee: He's a psychopath.
47:26: Charlie Rose: A psychopath?
47:27: Spike Lee: You know he-- you know he wants to change his-- his-- he's going to change his name, you know?
47:31: Charlie Rose: To?
47:32: Spike Lee: Orgasm.
47:33: Charlie Rose: Is that's right?
47:35: Spike Lee: Yeah.
47:36: Charlie Rose: He's a psychopath, though?
47:38: Spike Lee: I saw someone in Chicago was yelling ''Fake Orgasm!''
47:41: Charlie Rose: Your advertising agency-- talk a little bit beyond basketball.
47:44: Spike Lee: Yeah.
47:45: Charlie Rose: What is this about? I mean, why did you get in the advertising business and--
47:50: Spike Lee: Well, it was just--
47:51: Charlie Rose: --The New York Times Magazine spent a couple of pages talking about it.
47:54: Spike Lee: Well, it's a joint venture between D.D.B. Needham (sp? ) and myself. They're one of the world's biggest agencies. It's just a matter, Charlie, of me having more control artistically when I do commercials. For the most part, as a director, you don't have a lot of say artistically, creatively-- as far as creative work and this was giving me the opportunity to have more creative input and also to have ownership, you know? I own 51 percent of this company and it was a good move. I didn't have to put up any-- anything, you know? They put all the money up front and I own 51 percent.
48:33: Charlie Rose: Now, what kind of commercials are you going to make?
48:37: Spike Lee: Well, we've done-- already we've done commercials for the upcoming Mike Tyson-Evander Holyfield fight. We have some McDonald's commercials coming up. We've got some (unintelligible) commercials coming up. We're-- one of our clients is a company called Finish Line, which is a-- they're, like, foot action, athlete's foot, in the Midwest. We're going to be doing NHL spots for Fox Sports. So, you know, we're very happy about the amount of work we've got and we haven't-- and it hasn't even been a year. We've only been open, like, since January.
49:15: Charlie Rose: Well, you're good at this. I mean, you made all those commercials with Michael, which were your creative input, but you were simply a hired gun there.
49:23: Spike Lee: Well, I mean, I didn't write-- most of the time, I mean, I ad libbed, but I didn't write the spots and-- you know, and after the first couple years, you know, I really did not edit them, either. But this really gets me more creative input and also ownership.
49:36: Charlie Rose: How goes where you would like to be, in terms of your overall career, what you're doing, where you're positioned--
49:42: Spike Lee: Oh--
49:44: Charlie Rose: --the kind of films you want to make, the opportunity to make them?
49:48: Spike Lee: Well, that's a good question. I just want to be in the position where I can get financing and, you know. It still bugs me that I still haven't yet been able to get the financing for the Jackie Robinson. And so I've tried to be about, Charlie, is find alternative means of financing. One way-- you know, one direction went with as how we raised the money for Get on the Bus. So you know, you-- just because one of the studios says, ''We're not doing this film,'' that should not be the end of the road, you know? Foreign money-- wherever. I just got to, you know, find alternative means of finance.
50:25: Charlie Rose: How about making films for television? Would you do that?
50:30: Spike Lee: I would like to do a T.V. series. You know, I don't think I'm going to do any Home Boys From Outer Space, but I would like to do a drama for television.
50:41: Charlie Rose: What's happened to the Jackie Robinson project?
50:45: Spike Lee: Well, right now that property is owned by-- Warner Bros. took it over when they had that merger between Turner and Warner Bros., so we've had a couple meetings and they seem to be interested in it. But that will not be my next picture.
51:00: Charlie Rose: What else are you doing? What's the next project you got coming up?
51:04: Spike Lee: Oh, I know I got-- I did my first feature-length documentary.
51:08: Charlie Rose: On?
51:10: Spike Lee: It's called Four Little Girls for HBO. It's about the bombing of the 60th Street (sp? ) Baptist Church that took place in Birmingham, Alabama.
51:17: Charlie Rose: Oh, I remember-- of course, we all know that.
51:20: Spike Lee: September 15th, 1963.
51:22: Charlie Rose: Yeah. So what-- what did you do, you went back and interviewed everybody and talked to everybody?
51:26: Spike Lee: Yeah. The relatives, the parents, and George Wallace.
51:31: Charlie Rose: You interviewed George Wallace?
51:34: Spike Lee: Yes.
51:36: Charlie Rose: What was that like?
51:37: Spike Lee: It's kind of out there.
51:39: Charlie Rose: What does that mean, ''out there''? He's not in good health, is he?
51:42: Spike Lee: No, he's not, but he was still-- I want you to see the film. And it's a very, very (unintelligible) We really were successful in recreating who those four girls were. They got their-- they got wiped out at the ages of-- three of them were 14 and Denise Picknair (sp? ) was 11. And that's going to open New York at the Film Forum in July, be in several film festivals, and then it's going go be broadcast on HBO in February.
52:04: Charlie Rose: I want to take note of the fact-- because you and I-- you and I have had lots of discussions and frequently about race and I haven't talked about race in this-- in this conversation. We'll do it many, many times before, because of my interest and yours. But Tuskegee today, a subject you feel very strongly about and you and I have had conversations about it. The president today asked-- forgave on behalf of the country--
52:28: Spike Lee: Well, I think that's a great gesture on President Clinton's part, but I think that they also have to start writing some more checks because the amount of money that they gave, when it got distributed amongst all the people-- all the survivors, was really pennies, so I'd like to see those survivors get-- you know, open up the bank and give them some more money.
52:55: Charlie Rose: Well, at least we're beginning to take some recognition of the horrible, horrible--
53:00: Spike Lee: Terrible.
53:01: Charlie Rose: --thing that happened, so-- go, Knicks. It's great to have you here.
53:06: Spike Lee: All right. Going to see you in Chicago. I mean--
53:11: Charlie Rose: I'll come to Chicago.
53:12: Spike Lee: Come to Chicago?
53:14: Charlie Rose: I'll go with you to Chicago. (crosstalk)
53:15: Spike Lee: See you in the Garden, too, right?
53:16: Charlie Rose: Yeah, you will.
53:18: Spike Lee: So--
53:19: Charlie Rose: Not tonight. Not tonight.
53:21: Spike Lee: All right. But so, like, I have a seat--
53:24: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
53:25: Spike Lee: And you have to-- you have-- the game's at 8: 00. But you have a show? You're going to cancel the show, right?
53:30: Charlie Rose: Yeah. No. I will do the show ahead of time and I'll be there.
53:35: Spike Lee: Well, what happens if-- but I don't get the word till an hour before. You got to cancel the show.
53:40: Charlie Rose: We'll see. Here is
53:43: Spike Lee's Basketball Book: A Basketball Memoir. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you Monday night. Frank Gehry, America's greatest architect, will be here, and also we'll talk about Terence McNally's new film.