00:00: Charlie Rose: He is a member of the French Socialist Party and was one of Segolene Royal's top advisors during her campaign for the presidency. On June 17th he was re-elected in the parliamentary elections of the district of Bouillon. He is best known as a former culture minister in the 1980s, and education minister in the 1990s. This week he is in New York to launch the Make Music New York day long festival. I am pleased to have him here at this table. Welcome. Many people believe that Sarkozy represents dramatic change for France. What do you think he represents?
00:48: Jack Lang: Not really. It is a change, but it's not a dramatic change. Sarkozy is a perfect expression of the - of the right wing in France. His temper is a very active one. He brings to the political system a new energy, a new vision of the political system. But it's not a dramatic situation.
01:19: Charlie Rose: What is the new vision of the political system?
01:22: Jack Lang: The new vision is, first, that he will realize what he has promised. Namely, his economic and social policy. He's a conservative. He has an economic vision (ph) not very far from the vision of Bush and Reagan. But in the same time, he has a modern conception of the society. He wants to open the country to the new generations. And I am obliged to say that his government expressed the French diversity --
02:04: Charlie Rose: Yes.
02:07: Jack Lang: -- the diversity also of talents. And he has a sort of audace - how do you say - a sort of intrepidity --
02:14: Charlie Rose: Yes.
02:16: Jack Lang: Yes. He's chosen young people. He's chosen people coming from the immigration.
02:23: Charlie Rose: Yes.
02:25: Jack Lang: And I must recognize that it is really a change.
02:27: Charlie Rose: You congratulate him on his --
02:29: Jack Lang: For this --
02:31: Charlie Rose: -- governance.
02:33: Jack Lang: Not for the government but for the choice of some people --
02:36: Charlie Rose: For the cabinet.
02:38: Jack Lang: Yes.
02:40: Charlie Rose: Half of them are women.
02:42: Jack Lang: Yes -- no, he has not succeeded. It's only 40 percent. But it's a progress.
02:49: Charlie Rose: His foreign minister is a Socialist?
02:51: Jack Lang: He is a Socialist. A special Socialist, if you want. He is -- I know him very well, he is a friend. He's a friend.
03:00: Charlie Rose: Yeah.
03:02: Jack Lang: It wasn't -- in the past, he was not very purely (ph) integrated in the Socialist Party for many reasons. He's a free man. He is an original man. He doesn't represent the Socialist Party inside the government. It's obvious. But he brings its own temper, its own character, its own vision.
03:26: Charlie Rose: Do you believe Sarkozy, with the majority he has in the National Assembly, will be able to carry out the reforms he wants to carry out?
03:36: Jack Lang: It will not be easy, because the French society has . . .
03:48: Charlie Rose: What -- the French society what?
03:52: Jack Lang: Well, yes, the structures, the history, the traditions, the strong tradition of resistance. And if he wants to realize too rapidly his program, he will have many difficulties.
04:07: Charlie Rose: What is it he represents that you think is not appropriate? He wants to end the 35-hour week, in terms of allowing people who want to work more than 35 hours to be able to do so.
04:23: Jack Lang: Yes. But you know, if we speak about this question, the proposal -- the proposal of Sarkozy is not a good one. You know, what he proposes is this -- it is to abolish taxes on supplementary --
04:38: Charlie Rose: Yes supplementary.
04:41: Jack Lang: -- supplementary hours of work. You understand what I'm saying?
04:46: Charlie Rose: Yes. Yes. You can work extra hour without paying taxes.
04:53: Jack Lang: Yes.
04:55: Charlie Rose: Additional taxes.
04:58: Jack Lang: Yes. And I think it's very - it's very generous. First, it will cost much more the public treasury.
05:06: Charlie Rose: But it is an incentive to work more.
05:09: Jack Lang: Yes, to work more for people who have a job. But it will - it will be very bad, very bad for people who has no job. The French problem is underemployment of many people. You know, a company will prefer to give supplementary hours --
05:28: Charlie Rose: Yes, than hire new employees.
05:31: Jack Lang: Yes, it's obvious.
05:34: Charlie Rose: But it seems that according to polls, that the French people wanted to change the 35-hour workweek, correct?
05:41: Jack Lang: It is complex. It is not a clear way.
05:49: Charlie Rose: He also talks about a word that he didn't use in the campaign, a rupture. That the French social system needs to be changed, ruptured.
06:00: Jack Lang: Yes, it depends of the way, yes, if necessary --
06:03: Charlie Rose: Too much state.
06:06: Jack Lang: It's not the question of too much state. Too much -- too much rigid structures, too much inequities.
06:11: Charlie Rose: Too much control from the top.
06:15: Jack Lang: No, too much absurd rules. You know, for instance, I take an example. The taxes on the work are too high. But you have different way to how do you say - to --
06:29: Charlie Rose: Yeah. To bring them down.
06:34: Jack Lang: To bring them -- the way of Sarkozy is to decide to . . .
06:43: Charlie Rose: Oh, no, no. The way for him is to decide to do what with taxes?
06:46: Jack Lang: No, he wants to augmentez les teviars (ph). It's going to be new taxes.
06:49: Charlie Rose: New taxes?
06:51: Jack Lang: Yes.
06:52: Charlie Rose: Raise the --
06:55: Jack Lang: No, his way is to introduce new taxes to (inaudible).
07:04: Charlie Rose: It is said he is very pro-American.
07:07: Jack Lang: You consider we have finished on the --
07:10: Charlie Rose: Yes, yes, we'll skip. Unless - unless - we could -- I will help you.
07:16: Jack Lang: I want to resume.
07:20: Charlie Rose: Make the point about taxes.
07:24: Jack Lang: Some -- some questions, some economical questions which are put by Sarkozy are not bad questions, but the way he has chosen could be dangerous for the social equilibrium of the society. And I am not sure it will be good for the health of our public treasury.
07:46: Charlie Rose: Do you believe that France was doing OK economically?
07:52: Jack Lang: Not bad. It's a rich country.
07:57: Charlie Rose: Not as good as --
08:00: Jack Lang: No, France is a rich country. We have many possibilities, many investments. But the main question, the main question of the French economy is not -- is a question of the - of the -- we have to, in France, you understand, in France, our economic and industrial system, we have to invest much money private and public money in scientific research.
08:26: Charlie Rose: Scientific research?
08:29: Jack Lang: Scientific - scientific research, excuse me. In new technology. It is very, very important. It is the main problem of the French economy, the health of our industries, of our companies. They have to invest much more in the future.
08:50: Charlie Rose: What will be the incentive?
08:54: Jack Lang: The incentive -- first, our public budget are -- is not sufficient. And when you compare, with unity (ph) state, contrary to the common idea here in your country, the public investment in scientific research are -- is very high.
09:13: Charlie Rose: Yes.
09:15: Jack Lang: If you introduce monetary (ph) research in France, it's too weak. And we have to make an effort. And we have also to make an effort through private investment. Do you understand what I say?
09:28: Charlie Rose: I do. I do. On foreign policy --
09:35: Jack Lang: Yes.
09:38: Charlie Rose: He is clearly -- strongly believes in Europe. He's opposed to Turkey coming into the European Union.
09:44: Jack Lang: Probably will change.
09:48: Charlie Rose: He'll change. He's pro-American.
09:56: Jack Lang: He - all the French are pro-American. All the French people have a friendship for America.
10:04: Charlie Rose: Yes.
10:07: Jack Lang: The question is do we approve the decisions of the present American administration.
10:13: Charlie Rose: Having to do with the war.
10:15: Jack Lang: Yes. The question of Iraq.
10:19: Charlie Rose: Yes.
10:21: Jack Lang: I think it was not so --
10:23: Charlie Rose: He was against the war.
10:25: Jack Lang: He was --
10:27: Charlie Rose: Sarkozy.
10:28: Jack Lang: -- weakly against the war. And my friend Kouchner --
10:32: Charlie Rose: Kouchner --
10:35: Jack Lang: I like him.
10:37: Charlie Rose: -- was in favor of the war.
10:39: Jack Lang: -- was in favor of the war. You see the complexity of the French situation.
10:44: Charlie Rose: But friends of yours, intellectuals, were also in some cases in favor of the war.
10:47: Jack Lang: Yes. But we, the majority of people --
10:51: Charlie Rose: Yes.
10:53: Jack Lang: -- were against the war. Chirac was against the war. I was against the war, and I think it was a mistake to --
10:58: Charlie Rose: Yeah. But has France moved beyond that in terms of its attitude about America?
11:02: Jack Lang: Yes, you know, deeply we have --
11:04: Charlie Rose: The government.
11:07: Jack Lang: Yes. The government, yes, but deeply, the majority of people, the French people, the French parties have a great admiration for America, for the United States. We agree to certain policies, for instance, the Bush policy concerning the protection of environment --
11:24: Charlie Rose: Environment.
11:28: Jack Lang: Environment. And we observe that today -- I'm very happy of this -- we observe that today about this question of rechauffement climatique --
11:37: Charlie Rose: Yes. Climate warming.
11:42: Jack Lang: Many people, I mean, good people in the United States are making a struggle -- Bloomberg, Schwarzenegger, Al Gore and other people. Bush now is a little isolated, and it's a good thing for humanity.
12:00: Charlie Rose: Yes.
12:03: Jack Lang: And I think that the next month, there will be many progress and many, how you say, many possibility of agreement between America and Europe about this question.
12:13: Charlie Rose: In fact, Mr. Sarkozy, President Sarkozy is going to meet with Governor Schwarzenegger on June 24th, this month.
12:22: Jack Lang: Yes. He will see him at the end of the week in Paris.
12:27: Charlie Rose: In Paris.
12:30: Jack Lang: Yes. And Mr. Schwarzenegger has sometimes excellent ideas.
12:36: Charlie Rose: Especially on the environment.
12:38: Jack Lang: Exactly.
12:41: Charlie Rose: California is leading the country.
12:43: Jack Lang: Exactly, and very important for the world and very important for California. Very important for the United States.
12:52: Charlie Rose: What do you define in terms of these two states, France and the United States, other than the war, which is unpopular here as well?
12:59: Jack Lang: Yes. Now.
13:06: Charlie Rose: As the basic difference in America and France, other than power -- military power, economic power. In terms of the society, in terms of the attitude?
13:19: Jack Lang: First, America is a deep and real democracy. And I consider that we have many progress to do to change the French democratic system. If Segolene Royal has been elected, we wanted to change deeply the French constitution to, you know, to have a real parliament. Our parliament has no power. It's not the American Congress.
13:48: Charlie Rose: Sure.
13:51: Jack Lang: In order to give to citizen new life (ph). And I was interested by what Sarkozy has said yesterday through the French TV. He said that he wants also himself change the constitution.
14:03: Charlie Rose: In what way?
14:05: Jack Lang: I don't know. I'm very curious. And I want to put him the question. And if he introduce more democracy, I will support him.
14:18: Charlie Rose: But do you think that's what he wants to do? Because other people believe he likes to use power in the executive office.
14:28: Jack Lang: It's probably the way. But - and I am a democrat in the etymological sense --
14:32: Charlie Rose: Yes.
14:34: Jack Lang: If Sarkozy decides to open our system, it will be good for our country.
14:40: Charlie Rose: Who will be --
14:42: Jack Lang: There is (inaudible) difference between France and America --
14:46: Charlie Rose: Yes.
14:47: Jack Lang: -- but you have to read again de Tocqueville, you know.
14:51: Charlie Rose: Yes.
14:53: Jack Lang: Here, there is a sense of auto organization, the capacity of people to take initiative. And especially in the city of New York --
14:59: Charlie Rose: Yes.
15:01: Jack Lang: -- fabulous, the energy, the initiative of people, the dynamism of people. In France, it's a long story. People are waiting from state.
15:12: Charlie Rose: But that is what Mr. Sarkozy, President Sarkozy says he wants to change.
15:18: Jack Lang: If he is able to change this tradition without destroying the public services, it will be a good thing for the - for the society.
15:27: Charlie Rose: What happened to Mrs. Royal? Was she a good candidate?
15:32: Jack Lang: She was a good candidate. She was a -- she has great character. She has a strong energy. She is very, very strong. But I think that the campaign, not only because of her, was not sufficiently clear, sufficiently concrete, sufficiently coherent, I would say, sufficiently -- and --
15:58: Charlie Rose: What - excuse me.
16:00: Jack Lang: Excuse me. Excuse me.
16:05: Charlie Rose: When a campaign is not clear, it's the candidate's responsibility. You can't blame the advisors. You can't blame you or the other, quote, "elephants."
16:19: Jack Lang: Yes.
16:22: Charlie Rose: It's the candidate. Sarkozy made his campaign, not his campaign manager, not Mr. Fillon, Sarkozy. Yes?
16:35: Jack Lang: Yes. Mr. Sarkozy has prepared very well his campaign during five years. And his strategy was excellent, very professional. And very long prepared, very thoroughly prepared. Segolene Royal has been chosen as candidate in the last month, and probably the time was too short to be completely able to win against Sarkozy.
17:13: Charlie Rose: Many people are amazed that Mr. arkozy, who was part of the Chirac government, finance minister, interior minister, he was of the government.
17:24: Jack Lang: No --
17:27: Charlie Rose: The government was very unpopular.
17:30: Jack Lang: It's true.
17:33: Charlie Rose: And yet he becomes the man of change. He becomes -- throw the rascals out. Yes?
17:42: Jack Lang: You are a very good observer. You're -- it's true. And I have to say that what I am, I don't -- it is clear I don't approve the ideological vision of Sarkozy. But -- but as --
18:01: Charlie Rose: But you do approve some of it. You'd like to see more democracy. You would like to see --
18:09: Jack Lang: If it is realized.
18:11: Charlie Rose: -- some -- you would like to see the energy you find in New York --
18:15: Jack Lang: If it is realized.
18:16: Charlie Rose: -- individual sort of meritocracy you find in New York.
18:19: Jack Lang: If it is realized.
18:20: Charlie Rose: You would like to see France have -- do better in terms of people having an opportunity to --
18:24: Jack Lang: Exactly. But if it is --
18:27: Charlie Rose: As long as there was a flow of -- support --
18:29: Jack Lang: Yes.
18:31: Charlie Rose: -- for social welfare.
18:32: Jack Lang: No, because I want to be objective. And I repeat, if Sarkozy realized all of the things you are expressing now. But concerning -- I wanted to say that objectively -- his campaign was excellent. From a professional point of view. And I agree with you, he ha realized a miracle. He was member of the former government, number two. And he -- he had succeed to appear as a new man coming from a new planet, coming from Venus, coming from Mars. He was as Zorro to - it's fantastic. And we were unable -- we were unable to express clearly to the people that Sarkozy was the man of the ancient government.
19:23: Charlie Rose: It's because everybody knew that Sarkozy and Chirac were --
19:30: Jack Lang: It's true. But nevertheless, he was number two, number two of the government. And he was responsible.
19:42: Charlie Rose: But he was -- and he was head of the party?
19:45: Jack Lang: Yes, exactly, he was the president of the party. Some - something very curious, and --
19:50: Charlie Rose: Only in France?
19:53: Jack Lang: Only - I don't know. It is a strange specialty, perhaps, I don't know. No, the second miracle he has realized through words who were sometimes non-acceptable was to integrate, to incorporate the National Front -- the neo-fascists.
20:12: Charlie Rose: Yes. He just had Le Pen come into the meeting.
20:16: Jack Lang: Yes.
20:19: Charlie Rose: But you know what, Mitterrand, your friend - your friend, you were in his cabinet. Yes?
20:27: Jack Lang: Yes.
20:29: Charlie Rose: Minister of culture for Francois Mitterrand.
20:31: Jack Lang: Yes. And I'm very proud of this.
20:34: Charlie Rose: And very proud of it -- united the left.
20:36: Jack Lang: Yes.
20:40: Charlie Rose: He did. Many say Nicolas Sarkozy is uniting the right and putting it squarely in the middle, as Francois Mitterrand did for the left.
20:48: Jack Lang: Yes. Did for the (inaudible) --
20:52: Charlie Rose: He folded the Communists into the Socialist Party. He folded the left in, in the same way that Sarkozy is taking the right and saying --
20:59: Jack Lang: But it's not completely wrong. It is true. It's not completely wrong. Mitterrand has succeeded to integrate the people who voted Communist in the past. And it's the same now for Sarkozy, in relation with people who has voted Front National in the past.
21:18: Charlie Rose: Francois Mitterrand believed in a very strong president.
21:22: Jack Lang: Yes.
21:25: Charlie Rose: So does Nicolas Sarkozy.
21:29: Jack Lang: Yes. It's not -- I'm not against a strong president. What is a problem in France is that you have no check and balance. We have no equilibrium. Can you imagine in the country, where the separation of powers has been invented by Montesquieu --
21:51: Charlie Rose: Montesquieu, yes.
21:55: Jack Lang: -- after Locke -- we were historically unable to establish check and balance in France during two centuries until we give the power to a chief, a king, an emperor, a dictator, a super-president. No assembly, no contre-pouvoir, no check and balance.
22:15: Charlie Rose: But you had a revolution.
22:19: Jack Lang: Yes, but this revolution has not opened the way to harmonious (ph) democracy.
22:26: Charlie Rose: Maybe it is in your DNA.
22:29: Jack Lang: Excuse me?
22:32: Charlie Rose: Maybe it's in your
22:35: Dna: What it means?
22:37: Charlie Rose: It means that it is in your nature, it's in your -- it's who you are, to like a strong --
22:43: Jack Lang: No, it's not wrong. You know if you read "La democratie en Amerique..:"
22:48: Charlie Rose: Yes.
22:50: Jack Lang: "Democracy in America," of Tocqueville --
22:53: Charlie Rose: Yeah, exactly.
22:56: Jack Lang: It express very -- it's very modern. He say that the difference between American society, the American people and the French people is that in America, American people are able to organize themselves. They has a relation of - (inaudible) -- non-confidence?
23:12: Charlie Rose: Yes.
23:14: Jack Lang: They have a relation of non-confidence --
23:16: Charlie Rose: Right.
23:18: Jack Lang: -- in the public system.
23:20: Charlie Rose: Right. Right. No, no, it's exactly right.
23:24: Jack Lang: It's a contrary.
23:26: Charlie Rose: More power for the individual.
23:28: Jack Lang: More power for the individual.
23:30: Charlie Rose: And democracy.
23:33: Jack Lang: In democracy. And you are really a deep and serious democracy. In France, because of, Tocqueville say, the obsession of French people for formal equality, has this consequence that the people want to have a chief to decide for the country.
23:55: Charlie Rose: Yes. Authoritative figure.
24:01: Jack Lang: It's deeply in our culture.
24:03: Charlie Rose: Some say it is true in the Russian culture too.
24:08: Jack Lang: Perhaps also, yes. But it's - yes. So if Sarkozy is able to change this and if he is able to give to the country a real parliament, a real right for the people, a real system of - of democracy, it will be a progress. But I'm not sure he will succeed. I'm not sure he won't.
24:37: Charlie Rose: But you seem to be contradictory. You're saying there is no checks and balances --
24:43: Jack Lang: (inaudible).
24:45: Charlie Rose: On the other hand, you're saying he may not succeed because he can't get his programs enacted. What forces will keep him from getting his program passed?
24:59: Jack Lang: I think he wants to realize his program, his economical and social program.
25:05: Charlie Rose: But if there are no checks and balances, then he should probably get it realized.
25:15: Jack Lang: It's a question. I think it's -- even if he has many powers, if he is not able to give to the opposition, to the parliament real possibility of dialogue, of discussion, there will be a deep crisis in our country, because of this lack of democracy now.
25:39: Charlie Rose: But just to tap the --
25:42: Jack Lang: I don't know if I am clear.
25:46: Charlie Rose: No, you are very clear, very clear. It is also this. He -- you are admiring of how he has come out of the gate. You are admiring of his first weeks in office, you, yes?
26:00: Jack Lang: Admire? What - could you repeat, please?
26:05: Charlie Rose: He seems to be doing the right things.
26:09: Jack Lang: No, he is a good professional.
26:12: Charlie Rose: So you admire the steps he's taken so far.
26:14: Jack Lang: No, I admire -- I like people who are good professionals.
26:20: Charlie Rose: Why?
26:22: Jack Lang: Why, because policy is a serious thing.
26:25: Charlie Rose: Was Ms. Royal a good professional?
26:27: Jack Lang: In a sense, yes.
26:29: Charlie Rose: In a sense --
26:31: Jack Lang: In a sense, yes. But she has been chosen as candidate very late.
26:36: Charlie Rose: OK. What happens to the Socialist Party in France, your party? Is she the leader? Is Mr. Hollande, her former companion, the leader?
26:46: Jack Lang: To say - to speak frankly, I'm very severe with my own party. Today, they are divided. Today it is a war between the different leaders. And I think there is a lack of dignity. After a defeat, we have to try to preserve a unity, and to - to take the time to understand why we have lose, because the real question is this one. We had in the hands several months ago the possibilities to win. And we -- and it was a defeat. Why?
27:31: Charlie Rose: You tell me.
27:33: Jack Lang: Yes?
27:35: Charlie Rose: Why?
27:36: Jack Lang: No, I don't know exactly why.
27:38: Charlie Rose: You must have ideas. I mean, you were there.
27:42: Jack Lang: I have some ideas.
27:43: Charlie Rose: You saw it; you witnessed it. You discussed it.
27:46: Jack Lang: I have some ideas. I have not --
27:49: Charlie Rose: So why? Give us one or two of your ideas. Just one.
27:54: Jack Lang: You are excellent.
27:58: Charlie Rose: Finally, you are here in New York because of this music thing. What is it?
28:12: Jack Lang: No, I think -- no, I don't refuse to answer, but it is very difficult to -- I think that the French left is too abstract- she -- she's not really in -- near for the people.
28:26: Charlie Rose: She is not?
28:29: Jack Lang: Not -- the French left --
28:31: Charlie Rose: Yes.
28:33: Jack Lang: -- has too abstract language.
28:35: Charlie Rose: Abstract.
28:37: Jack Lang: Abstract.
28:39: Charlie Rose: Abstract.
28:41: Jack Lang: Sorry, because I repeat.
28:43: Charlie Rose: You (inaudible). Yes.
28:48: Jack Lang: The strategy, the strategies, the presidential strategy was not sufficiently clear and concrete. And the French left is too abstract, too -- it is -- the French left is cut from the deep reality of the country, of the people. And we have to imagine a new way. We have to imagine a real revolution for the Socialist Party.
29:15: Charlie Rose: It will be fun to watch.
29:17: Jack Lang: Excuse me?
29:20: Charlie Rose: It will be fun to watch, to observe.
29:22: Jack Lang: Yes, yes.
29:25: Charlie Rose: Thank you for --
29:27: Jack Lang: I really to give you news in the future. If we find - the --
29:34: Charlie Rose: Thank you.
29:36: Jack Lang: No, thank you. And I'm very impressed by your knowledge of the French reality. It's not new. I know that you are a good friend of France and you know very well the question and the subjects, and our contradictions.
29:52: Charlie Rose: Thank you. It's a place that I care about. Thank you very much.
29:57: Jack Lang: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
30:00: Charlie Rose: We'll be back.